Wiki to help the site maintenance

Olivier

Post by Olivier »

I suggest that anyone could easily edit the problems in order to add missing variations, comments etc. It would be cool if this was very easy to do, like on the wiki-type sites. (Idea: use the java-web version of Jago to do the job)

With the usual tools of version control, the administrators could easily track down mistakes.

That would make many of the problems more up-to-date, ease the process of finding doublons... That would free Adum from a lot of work. That would solve the problem of finding administrators.

What about that?

{Posted by Olivier}
admin

Post by admin »

this is a good suggestion. i do have an edit function right now with version history, but no interactive applet that could edit the sgf directly. i intend to create a new applet because the special functionality like marking paths as right or wrong makes it worth it, i think.

i like the idea of editing open to everyone. i'll have to think about it. what do others think?

adum

[quote]
I suggest that anyone could easily edit the problems in order to add missing variations, comments etc. It would be cool if this was very easy to do, like on the wiki-type sites. (Idea: use the java-web version of Jago to do the job)

With the usual tools of version control, the administrators could easily track down mistakes.

That would make many of the problems more up-to-date, ease the process of finding doublons... That would free Adum from a lot of work. That would solve the problem of finding administrators.

What about that?
[/quote]


{Posted by admin}
Spica

Post by Spica »

Perhaps if the contributor hadn't been around for a couple weeks then other people could edit the problem, to save comments from not being acted upon for months, but I'm not sure I would want a beginner editing the problems without having checked their variations with someone stronger first.

{Posted by Spica}
Olivier

Post by Olivier »

[quote]
I'm not sure I would want a beginner editing the problems without having checked their variations with someone stronger first.
[/quote]

I think that it will still work, for the same reasons that wiki sites work (especially Sensei's Library):

1) weaker player will not dare to alter a problem if they're not sure of what they do
2) in a crowded site like this one, stronger players would constantly watch a "Recent Change" page and check that the modified problems are still correct.
3) the mistake could easily be corrected since everyone could edit the problem

Cheers

Olivier

{Posted by Olivier}
Spica

Post by Spica »


[quote]
[quote]
I'm not sure I would want a beginner editing the problems without having checked their variations with someone stronger first.
[/quote]

I think that it will still work, for the same reasons that wiki sites work (especially Sensei's Library):

1) weaker player will not dare to alter a problem if they're not sure of what they do
2) in a crowded site like this one, stronger players would constantly watch a "Recent Change" page and check that the modified problems are still correct.
3) the mistake could easily be corrected since everyone could edit the problem

Cheers

Olivier
[/quote]

Sure but then the stronger players are effectively having to act as administrators/moderators which is partly what you were trying to avoid in the first place isn't it. Although this might be able to spread the work out between more people it will inevitably end up getting done mostly by a small minority.

Something definitely needs to be done about some of the problems though. There's that one where no stones are showing for a start. Perhaps problems could go through a period for a couple months after submission where they can be altered by anyone, after which they are presumed to be 'final' and can thereafter only be changed by the problem contributor or an administrator. Although at inception all the problems would need to be included it would shortly mean that the 'moderators' would only need to watch over a handful of problems at a time.


{Posted by Spica}
Olivier

Post by Olivier »

[quote]Sure but then the stronger players are effectively having to act as administrators/moderators which is partly what you were trying to avoid in the first place isn't it. Although this might be able to spread the work out between more people it will inevitably end up getting done mostly by a small minority.
[/quote]

I do not agree with "small minority". Most problems of this site can be mastered by dan players and there are a lot of them hanging around here. Even at my humble level I could help. The thing is: anyone can help according to his level.

[quote]Something definitely needs to be done about some of the problems though. There's that one where no stones are showing for a start. Perhaps problems could go through a period for a couple months after submission where they can be altered by anyone, after which they are presumed to be 'final' and can thereafter only be changed by the problem contributor or an administrator. Although at inception all the problems would need to be included it would shortly mean that the 'moderators' would only need to watch over a handful of problems at a time.
[/quote]

Well, there could be a "lock" on some problems if people keep messing around with them. I doubt it will be necessary, though.

I agree with you that the wiki system is scary, but the fact is that it works. Keep also in mind that the version controlling system seriously limits the damages an unexperienced player can inflict to a problem, for it is always possible to set a problem to its previous revision if something went wrong.

cheers!

-- Olivier

{Posted by Olivier}
Spica

Post by Spica »

[quote]
I do not agree with "small minority". Most problems of this site can be mastered by dan players and there are a lot of them hanging around here. Even at my humble level I could help. The thing is: anyone can help according to his level.
[/quote]

My point was that although a lot of players could check and correct variations not many would. I will doubtlessly be proved wrong but at present, looking through the comments, it's often the same people providing most of the answers to the various questions.

[quote]
snipped..

I agree with you that the wiki system is scary, but the fact is that it works. Keep also in mind that the version controlling system seriously limits the damages an unexperienced player can inflict to a problem, for it is always possible to set a problem to its previous revision if something went wrong.

cheers!

-- Olivier
[/quote]

Given the thread title I think the question that needs to be answered is whether this is an easier way to ensure that problems are both correct (show best play or strongest resistance) and contain as many interesting variations as reasonable/necessary. I think all the contributors are responsive to suggestions to add variations or if a better move is found. The issue seems to be more important with older problems contributed by somebody that no longer visits the site. Maybe it is worth having a trial period to find out.

cheers,

Spica

{Posted by Spica}
Spirit

Post by Spirit »

I prefer the current system. If stronger players have to check out (all of) the problems anyway (and possibly more than once), I think it is better to let them edit those problems in the first place. I think this way minimizes the total editing time and risk of mistakes, as long as (ofcourse) there are a few strong moderators around.

It might be benefical though if comments are send to at least one moderator, as well as to the submitter, to ensure the problem is updated if necessary.
Also depending on the problem type (fuseki problems for example are notoriously difficult to explain properly) it might be an idea to send the comments also to the strongest moderator to ensure the highest measure of correctness.

Just some thoughts..

Spirit

BTW. How many mods are there at the moment? And who are they?

{Posted by Spirit}
admin

Post by admin »

there are just four moderators right now, and only myself and spirit have done any moderating. you can see them and what they're doing at http://www.goproblems.com/edithistory.html
i was really hoping more people would volunteer, at least to check for duplicates or put problems into groups or things like that, but we'll see what happens in time.

it sounds like opening the editing up to everyone would be worth trying at least. i think people are surprisingly reasonable when it comes to not screwing things up unnecessarily. it's important to have an easily accessible version history in this case. maybe some problems could be locked too.

adum


[quote]
I prefer the current system. If stronger players have to check out (all of) the problems anyway (and possibly more than once), I think it is better to let them edit those problems in the first place. I think this way minimizes the total editing time and risk of mistakes, as long as (ofcourse) there are a few strong moderators around.

It might be benefical though if comments are send to at least one moderator, as well as to the submitter, to ensure the problem is updated if necessary.
Also depending on the problem type (fuseki problems for example are notoriously difficult to explain properly) it might be an idea to send the comments also to the strongest moderator to ensure the highest measure of correctness.

Just some thoughts..

Spirit

BTW. How many mods are there at the moment? And who are they?
[/quote]


{Posted by admin}
Olivier

Post by Olivier »

[quote]I will doubtlessly be proved wrong but at present, looking through the comments, it's often the same people providing most of the answers to the various questions.[/quote]I completely agree. I bet that only a few people would maintain the site. This is exactly what happens on Sensei's Library.

As you put it previously, this wiki idea is just an easy way to deal with the problem of administrators. Instead of having official admins, a wiki site ends up with improvised ones.

Think of all the comments that look like: "I think that wA1 bA2 wA3 bT5 should work --- no, but bS3 wR4 blablabla". Why not put these ideas directly in the problem?

If you guys are afraid by beginners adding dumb variations, there could be a beginner section wherein the problem could be duplicated so as not to alter the original one.

About the fuseki kind of problem: this is exactly the kind of pb where I would need more variations and more explanations. This work of adding variations and comments can become very tedious for one person alone.

cheers

-- Olivier

{Posted by Olivier}
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