spot the atari and 30k probs

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santa c

Post by santa c »

hey adum!

i was thinking of making a 'spot the atari' group (*dodges a rotten tomato*) and adding some basics like 8412 (unless u think that including them under elementary is enough). but such a group could use a (*dodges a flying rat* o_O) ignore-atari-probs rule for ppl who recieve mail... ("to preserve the contributors health"... >_<) what do u think? :)

yeah you could partially blame tristesses reply to 'tighten the rating sys' on the 15/04/06 (just below)... and maybe some of the basic ladders and other simply-atari problems with non 100% success rating...

[quote]

Further note on this,

There are a a ton of problems that are rated 30 kyu now, that are obviously not 30 kyu level. E.g. crane in the nest (involving a throw-in, snapback, and finally atari-connect!), and some damezumari patterns etc.

30 kyus are players who doesn't know ladders or false eyes or anything like that. They're the guys that try to kill all your stones by surrounding them with one contact play after another. How are they supposed to be able to read snapback and shortage of liberties patterns??

(I think the problem is that a lot of us have grave trouble with remembering when we were at this level, or that we would like to deny that we ever were... ;))

I have seen Graded Go Problems for Beginners Vol. 1 (30-25 kyu) and the problems there are of the type "capture some stones" when 2 stones are already in atari. The "advanced" problems involve ladders and straight-forward semeais. The problems where Black has a 3-point single eye and it's White's turn to kill -- those are problems for 30 kyus!

This might not be a problem for the rest of us yet, but it is probably happening on on the 20, 18, 15, etc kyu levels too. If the general drift continues I think miai problems to hit 30 kyu next (simple nets and short ladders have already fallen). :P

[/quote]


{Posted by santa c}
tristesse

Post by tristesse »

I don't know if you're just joking or what, but maybe add a category like "learner" (for those still trying to grasp the concept of eyes and ladders etc.), to separate real 30 kyu problems from the inflated ones. The "elementary" category is pretty much useless? There are dan problems in there... And loads of 5-1 kyu problems. It is kind of arrogant toward beginners to call these problems "elementary" (obviously they are not, if 70% of the goproblems.com community can't solve them).

It is too easy for strong players blow off beginners by saying stuff like "but black has to play here to set up the snapback, and then white's only move is here, but then black plays there and white is short of liberties, it is obvious, what's the problem?" :P "Set up the what?"

Of course, goproblems.com would also be more beginner-problem friendly if it rotated and inverted colors etc. Then we could just add 50-100 very basic problems and be done with it: beginners would probably have progressed to higher ranks by the time they got the exact same pattern.

OK, another idea that just strikes me: make a "pack" of a hundred very basic problems in SGF and put it up on goproblems.com for download (specifically for people trying to learn the game of GO), and give links to programs such as uliGo and GoGrinder. This one should appeal to the people who thinks all this fuss over beginner problems is silly. :)

It would be very easy for even a 10 kyu to do, and I (7k KGS) have the time, if there is any interest?

{Posted by tristesse}
santa c

elementary and 30k time trial should suffice it seems?

Post by santa c »

why would i be kidding? @_@

elementary, at least according to the secription by the group field in the add-problem page is meant to be for complete beginners (problems such as playing in the middle of a 3 spaced eye). however i sometimes feel that a problem with 3 possible moves, no matter how tricky a ko it sets up, just can't be treated as anything else... my logic is probably wrong and it should only be used for the real-basic kind an almost complete beginner would have a chance to understand (notice the _understand_ instead of _solve_ <- complete beginners "learn" reading by understanding why something works and attempting to imagine it, i belive which actually makes the crane-nest a rather fitting problem as they try to block the connetion even if they can't see that far ahead)

i've suggested the color-invertion and board rotating and the coordinates-in-comments issue came up there...

as for the pack of problems, don't you think that the time trial at 30k serves that purpose?

{Posted by santa c}
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